00:00
Hi, and welcome to Power of the Network. I'm your host, Tim Locker, Vice President of Broadband here at CBM. This week, we've got a special treat for you. We're bringing back a guest from the past, Ms. Jade Piros de Carvalho. She is now uh on the fiber expansion team with Socket Fiber. So it's been a couple of years since we've had a chat with her. We're going to see what's new, what's going on with her, and what Socket Fiber is up to. So follow along.
00:32
Jade, thank you so much for joining us again. It's great to have you back in studio. It's great to be here. Thanks so much for the return offer. Yeah. I always say that CBN people are some of the nicest people in broadband. So. Oh, well, thank you. Thank you. You're so sweet. you've, you know, we had you on a couple of years back now and you've had a few changes in your world. So. Catch us up on what Jade's up to now. Well, I'm back on the operator side.
00:56
working for a fiber provider called Socket Fiber, um located actually here in Missouri. headquartered in Columbia. So um I mostly facilitate market entry uh for Socket, really work with a small market expansion team to address barriers to getting into new communities. It's a really good meld of my local government work and what I've done on the broadband side.
01:24
That's great. So I guess one of my assumptions would be then you're trying to help identify some of the areas and towns that need fiber to the home. That's part of it. And where you guys can target as a company. So market expansion is so much more than like showing up to a community and saying, hey, can we work here? It's never that easy. Each community is a little bit different and it's like a puzzle you're trying to put together. So we start by yes, you know, from a strategy standpoint.
01:54
identifying unfibred premises and markets that might be something we're interested in going into. Then I do research on the city code, which is the list of all the city ordinances, um to see if their right-of-way access policy or process is outlined in law. And then I identify the people in city staff that make decisions, usually the city engineer or public works director. And I meet with them and establish a relationship.
02:23
then just create a checklist of all the tasks that need to be done before we're able to permit. it's been really fun because, well fun might not be the word, it's been pretty humbling. had a lot of senses. Because on the Kansas side, I did this before when I was with Idea Tech. But a lot of the market expansion we did was during the pandemic and I was able to procure like 10 franchise agreements in a month.
02:52
The world is not that easy anymore. um And it wasn't before the pandemic either, but you you sometimes have to go before multiple commissions and the governing body for approval before you can even start the permitting application process. um So just trying to craft the net in every community. that's kind what I'm heading up. And it's been so much fun and the team is so much fun to work with. And it's great to be.
03:19
in a company that's highly capitalized and money isn't necessarily the object. The object is just figuring it out, working with communities that might not be happy to see your face, and getting there before anybody else does, because it's really like land grab right now. It's like a gold rush. there's other companies doing the same thing. my goodness. They're identifying the same targets. Yeah, and I'm primarily working in the St. Louis area, and my word, everybody's building over there, it seems like. uh
03:48
And what I'm finding is that if somebody's in there and they don't do a good job, there's a lot of reactive policy making on the governing body side. So a council might pass a reactive ordinance, making it more difficult to access. Right. And so you're really dealing with, with that too, like nothing you've done wrong, but people are tired of their yards being torn up or lines being hit. And, and so you really have to go in there and,
04:18
do everything you say and try to prove to them through that that you're not like everybody else. But it is hard. But no, it's been a lot of fun. uh what are some of the, I guess first, just because you identify a target doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be able to go in there and build, right? Yeah. So what does that process look like first? uh
04:46
how big of a swing in cities do you see in terms of wanting you to come in or not wanting you to come in or being flexible with some of the codes and those things? What are some of those challenges? Yeah, it's such a great question. I'll say that um the swing, starting with that, is huge. Like, Community X over here might roll out the red carpet, put you on the first agenda, and ease you into the community while...
05:14
literally the adjacent community is like nobody's building in here. Now, that's not necessarily legal because it's called the public right of way for a reason. is actually, it's not necessarily, they can't necessarily keep you out. em But you also don't want to bulldoze your way into a community and start a long-term relationship that way. And so it's, I think, again, the challenge has been that there have been some bad actors.
05:42
And in those communities, look, I have one community, I won't name them, on the Illinois side who said, yes, we can't allow another fiber provider to come in. We don't have any locate capacity. um Now, don't necessarily want to go and overbuild another fiber provider. But the challenge is, like what you were saying, just because you identify this area doesn't mean you can necessarily build. You don't necessarily understand
06:12
if it's a good prospect just by looking at the data, right? The FCC data is six months old. You can't always scrape locate data. You can in Kansas and Missouri. You can't in Illinois. So you're operating off intelligence that's half a year old. So you get on the ground, you establish these relationships, and usually the people, the staff, they want to help you understand it better. They'll say, you know, they'll go to, I went to one county.
06:39
And the county engineer just mapped out, provider's building here, this one's building here, this one's building here. And those were things we couldn't see because it was too recent and all this is happening now. so, um yeah, you really have to get on the ground and talk with people. A lot of what we do is virtual these days, but you really have to get on the ground. um But when they say you can't go in there, um you have a couple choices.
07:08
I don't know, attractive enough community, you're going to find a way. So maybe that's by hiring additional USIC locators for that one market if they don't have locate capacity. Maybe it's just sitting down and having a long meeting to better understand what went wrong with other providers and error correcting before that happens.
07:34
Yeah, and that's one of the first questions I ask when I meet with an engineer, city engineers. You know, well tell me about some things that have gone wrong in the past that you want to be sure we avoid. And that helps present the understanding that like we want this to be a partnership and we're not here to, again, tear up your streets. You have to understand, this is something I think providers miss that I appreciate because I was 10 years on city council. m
08:01
Oh, a city's roads are like their most expensive asset. Yeah. Period. Yeah. Period. And then the residents don't understand like easements necessarily. They don't understand the utility easement or This is my yard. This is my yard. you tearing up my yard? Typically it is, but that slice is It's your yard to maintain, but you don't know. Yeah. lots of communication on the front side of building. think it's really helpful.
08:30
helpful for market entry. You have to enter a market acting in the way you're going to need to act to get customers to trust you on the customer acquisition slide, right? So if you communicate in advance where you're going to be, what the construction process is going to look like, how they will be impacted, and then constantly communicate throughout the process, you do the drop bury expediently,
09:00
want to work with you. want to take care it is construction and it is messy. That's just the unfortunate part of it. How do you relay that message? So you've got a city where they've had problems and if you work through it and you're going to do all these things on the front end to mitigate that, how do you make sure that your contractors deliver on what you're promising? Well, isn't that the $64,000 question?
09:29
It comes down to choosing the right partners. And I think it's a real, it's really tricky at this moment because there is so much private capital being put into building out these networks. And so there's this sense of urgency and you got to do it fast and whoever can do it the fastest, but sometimes that can bite you, right? Because if you, let's say you hit a line and it was the contractor's fault, not an improper locate or something.
10:00
they're going to shut you down, you know? And I don't know how long they're going to shut you down for, but it's better to try to address it by selecting the right partners. And a lot of communities, you know, they require a pre-construction meeting where they sit down everybody and, um you know, you just hash out how things work in the same room and the communication schedule moving forward. But some communities don't. So one thing we always do is we insist upon that pre-construction meeting and we still...
10:30
We say, coordinate it. I've got an agenda that we kind of use as a template. We bring our contractors in and the person on the market expansion team that started the relationship, whether that's me or one of the guys, will kind of run that meeting and say, hey, this is who you call if there's an issue and this is who you escalate to and this is the head of OSP on our side. This is the construction coordinator who's going to do daily reports or weekly reports.
10:59
whatever their preferences. When we have that initial contact before we get to construction, that's another thing we like to map out is what do you prefer? What's your preferred communication? Is it text? Is it email? Is it a call? And how often do you want that? And some of these public works directors want daily communication. What streets are you going to be on? So that when residents call in, they know what's going on. Yeah, they know ahead of time. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.
11:29
What's tougher or maybe it doesn't matter, you know, dealing with a city or dealing with a county and I guess, do you have to deal with both? Even though if you're in the municipal, do you still have to deal with both or just county in the rural? kind of depends. you know, in some counties there are roads through the city. Okay. So a county road or even a state road that's going through. Exactly. There's one county we're working in. This is on the Illinois side and I think there are more than 50
11:59
local governmental bodies will have to deal with. And that's because Illinois has something similar to Kansas called townships. There's not a lot here in Missouri. um So that's been kind of an eye-opener over at Socket because I did township work at Idea Tech on the Kansas side. I was more familiar with it. But a lot of times the county will handle the permitting for the townships, but sometimes they don't. And sometimes there aren't utility easements on some of these township roads. So then you have to negotiate.
12:28
and easement with the townships. And so it can get really complex and it comes down to how you design your network and you can kind of design to avoid a lot of that. do primarily underground construction. And so if we did more aerial, we could probably get away with not having to worry about a lot of that. But it's been interesting over the last 10 years in this industry to note how
12:56
difficult it is to get on poles. I mean, sometimes it's faster to bury, which is just wild to me. And not that more expensive to bury. Well, it depends on the make ready piece of it too. Some utilities may look at that as a uh
13:19
an opportunity to maybe take advantage of who's wanting to get on their polls. Oh, this is, you know, they've got an old network and now it's got to be all upgraded to handle your line. So you're going to pay that cost. they won't replace their polls knowing somebody is going to want to be on it. And then you ask for, you know, an attachment. They're like, yeah, sure. Just replace the whole poll, you know, and all of these 50 on the line too. So that all of that cost is then passed. So that's a challenge. then
13:47
You know, just your poll attachment agreements can get costly. they can. And they can. And yeah, it's a mess. And I'm really in favor of local control and not preempting things at the federal level that can be handled, you know, the state level or the local level. But my goodness, I wish they would just preempt that. The FCC would take care of that. Well, you know, we've worked with some different utilities. And I guess I'll just ask you your take on this. So you're familiar with uh
14:16
like Duraline's Future Path, the micro duct in the different bundles and all that. we also have an aerial product in the Future Path as well. And so we've got utilities that are looking at that for their communication space, putting up one bundle of ducts in the air, but then leasing that to providers. Oh man, that's smart.
14:40
So because then it- Why haven't they thought of that before? Well, that's one of our agendas, you know, but then that way they can mitigate that and here's the communication space. It's all in one, well, multiple pipes, but it all in one package and then it just keeps it clean. I'm pretty sure we're using Duraline for our middle-mile network in Kansas, that seven-way. Yes, yes, yeah. I know IdeaTech has used a bunch of that and the Kansas fiber network has used a bunch of the future paths as well. well, and it's interesting now,
15:10
I don't know if you know the connection between IdeaTech and Socket. I was going to ask that. I vaguely do, but I was going to hope you would explain it better. it's one company now, but it's two brands. each company is run by like, different management. it's, we're all still trying to figure it out, right? uh But the reason I thought of that is because the Joel, the guy who does purchasing,
15:37
both companies. So he was only doing it for Idea Tech, but now he does it for Socket. Have you met Joel, probably? Yeah, we spent some time with him just this week at the show. Oh, great. Great. We have done, for CVM anyway, we've done an awful lot with Idea Tech over the years, less with Socket. So that's a goal of ours, obviously, to hopefully bridge some of what Idea Tech has done and some of the products they use and bring that to Socket as well. think anytime you see this kind of melding of
16:08
of brands that are like really distinct and long established. em It'll take time, right? But we are trying to find a way to streamline processes em and um yeah, work better together on best practices. So I was really heartened when Joel was given the opportunity to take over both companies purchasing because I think that's just going to make us both so much stronger and more efficient. He's got great relationships and um just
16:37
you know, super smart, same with HR, um our chief people officer, ah she's just amazing. And now she's over HR for both companies. Her name's Megan. it's um such a good opportunity because you're learning from leadership, strong leadership in two different companies that have been established for almost 30 years. Idea Tech was founded in 99, Socket was founded in 94. They both have, you know, just north of a hundred thousand passing. So they're kind of similar.
17:07
but also very different strengths and it's nice to pull from both. I always thought socket was more of a middle mile type of provider. Did they start out that way? they didn't, but they are more of a, they have much more on the commercial side. Okay. So they have, yeah, probably like 50 % of their revenue currently is business versus Idea Tech, which is primarily.
17:36
primarily fiber to the home. And that's probably born out of, when Ideatech sold to Zayo in 2014, there was a five year kind of non-compete on larger customers. And so uh they just didn't do much in that space for five years. So I wasn't totally angry, but I was at least kind of right.
18:04
At least my thought was kind of like, Yeah. So that's certainly something, uh you know, this new ownership is good news for us because, you know, we can hopefully leverage those relationships better, you know, moving forward. So uh now both companies are so far like on the preliminary list for the bead recipients. Knock on wood. Yeah. We had this conversation two years ago. Oh my goodness. And hopefully we're not having it two years from now.
18:34
Tim, we may be. ah what's your take on the whole situation? Oh, golly. I am so grateful to not be in the seat of a state broadband director right now. My heart just aches for them and all the work that those staffs have put into a program. And really the NTIA too, know, it just seems like uh I still think a lot of good is going to come from this program, number one. But number two, it's not going to be
19:02
It's not going to have the same impact that it would have a few years ago. I think we always understood the need for multiple technologies to be at the table. And that was always a given. remember in Kansas, we always assumed we'd have about 25, 20 to 30 % wireless and the rest fiber. But I never in a million years thought we, as a country, would be giving 20 plus percent.
19:30
locations to low-earth orbit satellite technology. I assume, and most of the state directors did as well, that we would be in like the 2 % range. I remember a few years ago talking to a director who was estimating 8 % going to satellite, and I was horrified. I was horrified. Now you're seeing states that are giving like 60%. But again- I understand. There's certainly a need for it. Absolutely. There's certainly a need. there's, you know, I take Iowa, for example.
19:59
little pockets of the state where there's a lot of rock and construction is challenging. But for the most part, it's a dream to dig in Iowa. it shouldn't be that big of a percentage. that should be what's driving the technology. And my estimate is the viability, like how practical is it to get. But I feel like it's more like politics are driving. um
20:27
the decision and that's what bothers me. mean, Leo is, it's an extraordinary technology and thank God we have it. But I just can't help but feel that we're going to be in the same space 10 years down the line that we are today because we didn't choose the right but difficult path. And I know that's easy to say, it's like a fiber provider, em but it has more to do with just understanding long-term investment. em
20:57
and infrastructure versus like.
21:03
Did you ever wonder what's the role of a manufacturer's rep? Reps are independent firms that sell products for multiple factories. We're really an extension of the sales teams uh of these factories. It's a cost-effective way to increase uh sales representation in an area for a factory because we're just a commission-based salesman, so they don't have to have a direct employee in every state that we cover. We offer local expertise.
21:32
We have great relationships in the markets that we in and reps really drive that value for for manufacturers at CBM. We support three specific industries We work in commercial industrial industry uh utility industry and also in uh Communication broadband market as well today more than ever these markets are overlapping and because of how we're structured with with our esop We've got the flexibility to put our experts
22:01
uh no matter what field they work in, in the right place. that's a benefit to both manufacturers and customers because we can better serve our customers, we can better serve our manufacturers, and put the product experts where they need to be. So if you're looking for representation from an awesome sales force here in the Midwest, look no further than CBM. You can reach out to us here at cbmrep.com.
22:30
How long, what's the lifespan of one of the satellites? Except for some different numbers. It's about five years. I mean, I think is when they're deorbited, right? After about, they reenter the atmosphere after about four to five years. Is that right? Am I making that I don't know. That's why I'm asking. I am not an expert. But um there's definitely a recurring long-term cost to that. is. And what's so fascinating to me is that we released, as a country we released,
22:59
a policy revision saying we have to be technology neutral, but then we created the policy rules to absolutely place the thumb on the scale for Leo because it's the only technology that isn't milestone based reimbursement. if you put in a fiber network or wireless network, you're going to get your grant funding back as you spend it and produce basically results. on results. Yeah. But Leo, they get like half the money upfront.
23:27
There's also no federal interest taken, which is mind blowing to me. So the federal government is taking an interest in, like it always does, in all of its grant recipients in those networks for, what is it, 10 years? uh They're not doing that for Leo. And there are just some other ways. Obviously they're not under the same regulatory burdens, because they're not on the ground. So they don't have to go through all uh of the environmental stuff.
23:55
Well, they have totally different permitting process. Exactly. They're not dealing with the county. Let's put a satellite. Yeah. So it's a little frustrating. It's a little frustrating because I don't think we're going to have, we're not going to close the digital divide with this program like we thought we would. Well, we may get people connected, but we're not going to get them connected long term.
24:18
I'd love to be wrong. I'm wrong a lot, so I'm probably... Please come invite me back in 10 years and tell me how wrong I am on this because no one would be happier if this was a success. I think the other thing that's uh unsettling about the program change is how much money is going to likely be ripped away from the states that were... That was legally allocated to them by Congress. So that's a bummer. oh
24:46
So I guess my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, but so the states, a lot of them now, almost 40 of them have released the sub-grantees. then now those have to go back oh to the feds and be approved. And then does it have to be bid again or is it the final number? I don't believe it's the final number. Just being on the provider side of it, there's been a lot of back and forth, a lot of pushback.
25:16
The goalpost might be here and you have to reach this number, but then it's submitted to the NTIA and they come back and say, actually here. No, actually here. And so it's really hard to operate when you don't know the rules and there's no transparency around it, really. So I think that some states will be forced to go back to, let's say they had competitive areas, some states will be forced to go back to like a lower technology that had competed if they chose fiber.
25:46
just in some areas, I anticipate. I hope that's not the case. I hope they say, by gosh, I mean, the states have done everything we've asked and have bobbed and weaved and pivoted more times than they should have ever. We should trust that they know what's best for their state and approve it. And I would think that since the administration is already receiving an estimated 50 % plus savings from their policy change, they...
26:15
that should be good enough. That should be good enough. But that's like 20 levels above my pay grade. we'll see what Secretary Letnick does. I think it really comes down to what he's willing to sign off on. it could be, some of these decisions could be politically motivated. um I was really uh encouraged to see that governors who are very close to the Trump administration and very red states have come out and said,
26:44
this is what we believe in. we think you should approve it. Say Louisiana, I think they're at 80 % fiber. And the governor is very involved in that process. And I think if West Virginia and Louisiana and some of these more conservative states that have a strong affiliation with the administration, if they really stick to it and um champion their state's long-term infrastructure investment in fiber, that we should
27:13
hopefully see some of these other approvals start to fall into place. So from a company standpoint, ah I guess how much does the bead really matter to you? What's the commitment level to your customers and your communities that you're going to go in and build it anyways? That's a great question because. Because obviously the funding is important. It is important. But you also are obligated to take care of your customers. ah
27:43
For you guys moving forward, what does that look like? I would say it was a lot more important before May, right? When we were acquired by private equity.
27:55
I think private equity in general, I may be wrong, but definitely with our ownership, they're interested in passings, right? Bid by definition is being done in areas that are very remote. They don't have a lot of passings per mile. It's the underserved Exactly. So I'm grateful that ownership allowed these companies that have
28:24
been embedded in these communities in their states, respective states for so many years, they allowed them to continue to participate in these programs. Because I'll tell you, we've got hundreds of millions of dollars in private capital and we could go into denser areas and all day every day. So I wouldn't say we needed to participate in BEAD. I don't think these are areas we would have chosen to go into. though, I mean, I don't know. I can't say that for sure, but.
28:54
The companies were built with missions around serving the underserved and bridging the digital divide. Obviously, the calculus changes when you have outside investors. again. And that can be built around the corporate mindset though. But like you said, if that allows you to take care of that subset of customers that you want to take care of, then that's Exactly. um
29:24
when they had to redo, they went after a lot in Kansas. And so when they had to redo all of those applications, I think there was a lot of inside conversation and discussion around why are we doing, why do we continue to spend so much time and money and resources? Because that's what companies are doing. And a lot of them don't have private equity background backing. So they're like spending real money that they could be spending putting a mile fiber in the ground, right?
29:51
on these applications and on these efforts to procure grants. So I think there was a lot of discussion and I just kept encouraging them. Being from Kansas, I know a lot of fiber providers pulled out after em the policy revision. I said, if IdeaTech doesn't go after it, like who's going to step up to the plate? Who's going to step up and build these networks? So um I'm really glad that they... em
30:17
They decided to. I'm not sure that they're glad because it's still a lot of back and forth and time, but I'm like, I'm over here at Socket, so you have fun with that. Yeah, that's, somebody's got to do it. Yeah. You know, I've seen a lot of companies are just frustrated at this point with all the red tape and all the back and forth. And even us just, you know, as salespeople and it's like, wow. Yeah. I think, like, I'm curious. I know you're the one asking the questions, but.
30:46
as a company like yours, you make business projections off expected timelines, right? Because $42.5 billion just does change the market, right? so knowing that... That's been a challenge for us to forecast. You keep moving the goalpost, like you say, and a lot of folks are just kind of waiting. Well, we're just going to kind of see what happens. So there's always projects out there, but...
31:14
the bulk of them are just kind of still waiting. uh And a lot of our customers have said the same thing, like, well, yes, we're still going to build it, but I'm not going to build it before I'm told I do or don't have the money. So it's on hold. So that just keeps pushing everything back. So yeah, it's been challenging on us. It's slowed the market down for sure. I've noticed it's impacted every single.
31:40
corner of the industry. So you have like equipment providers and distributors and you have, but also like the engineering firms or the construction management firms and obviously the contractors, construction contractors. yeah, it's a lot of people were kind of building an anticipation of something happening and then it didn't happen. And even the manufacturers, our manufacturers have put millions of dollars into investing in their
32:09
productivity, know, adding to the plants and that and, you know, we've, they've got to sell more product, you know, to return on all that investment. I look at some of these companies that like really stepped up to the plate on uh producing things just to meet BABA requirements, complete, like so much R and D that went into that. And now they may never reap the benefits of that. And so when America has another program in, you know, a few years, like what is the
32:38
the or the probability that these companies are going to trust the American government. That's been one of the things that I've kind of wondered, know, like preform line products, know, PLP for us, you know, they've long been, you know, right down the road in Rogers, Arkansas, you know, one of the factories, you know, we take customers to and ah they had a few challenges in terms of Baba and there's different things they had to do, but for the most part, everything, you know, they've,
33:07
pretty much qualified because they've already been producing it here. But I've also seen the flip side of that where, you you go to some websites and the company might say, you know, Baba list coming soon. Yeah. And they're taking advantage of that because they're not being forced to really make that move yet. And if the goalpost keeps moving, they're going to be just grandfathered in and they did nothing where the people that stepped up and did the right thing are going to be penalized.
33:36
Yeah, and it just creates this type of precedent and environment where people know that they don't necessarily have to follow the rules. They can wait it out. And then, if you don't have rules... Or a waiver, you know, at some point when... Yeah, another waiver. That's what everybody was waiting for, right? just kept Lead times are good now. And then, okay, if and when this money finally hits the street, lead times are going up. Even though everybody's invested in their...
34:05
factories and can do more, it still takes time to ramp that up. You've got to hire more people. You can't just flip a switch and overnight you're making more. oh I think that's one of the most insidious things about the way this program is being rolled out versus how was initially. Initially, we would have seen this money trickle in in waves, right? As states were done with plans and I mean, probably over the course of two or three years.
34:34
You know, we probably wouldn't have, you know, we would have seen Missouri, Texas, California, maybe start two years after Louisiana, Virginia, Nevada, Kansas, you know, just because of where they had, you know, where they were in the process. And those were intentional, like some states wanted to start later. And, you know, that's how we saw capital projects fund roll out too, right? In tranches of like four states at a time. And it's just so much less disruptive.
35:03
to the industry because you're absolutely right, not just lead times, but oh my gosh, like the cost of everything is going to skyrocket. Yes, well. Demand's going to skyrocket all at the same time. the thought of, yeah, okay, we're going to build the whole country in five years. That's insane. But you know, AI and data centers, fiber is going to be short supply. Yeah.
35:29
I've been told that 80 % of the fiber capacity is going to data centers. That's wild. So that leaves 20 % for this market, which is not going to be enough. Yeah, but it does point to the fact that the industry is going to be solid um even without these programs, which that's not the problem, right? The industry is going to be okay, but the unserved aren't. They need the programs.
35:58
Yeah, we're going to have all this tremendous growth from AI and data centers. That's really going to fuel the industry, I think, for quite a while. Plus, you've got all these cable overbuilds happening with private equity. That's going to fuel for a couple years. But who's ever going to take care of the one location per mile people? That's who are really going to be hurt in all of this policy swing.
36:28
Yeah. Yeah. Taking care of the guy that's way out at the end of the road, know, fiber to the ranch. Yeah. You know, all these, all these places that, that frankly the big guys have not taken care of. Yeah. Right. Because there's- Why these programs exist. Yeah. They're after the metro. know, the guys in the role have been all left over. So, yeah. Yeah. It'll be interesting to see how it shakes out. Hopefully we have, you know, next year. Yeah. Do you want to, do you want to make a bet? Do you want it over and under?
36:57
date or? You betting man? I don't. Yeah, I don't think anyone does Tim. do believe the secretary when he says he's going to make the decision in December. So I do think we'll know one way or the other. My concern is if he doesn't make that decision until December and he says, no, you're going to have to go back with some of these dates, like, what's that timeline look like? Yeah. You know?
37:26
Did they just revert to the second bidder? What if there wasn't a second bidder? Did they just give it all to uh a state program for Leo for all those locations? I mean, we don't know. What got my interest is, I don't know, it's been a few months back, but this is a topic that has kind of just been in the industry. Anybody that's in the industry talks about being what's going on. But I saw uh John Stewart was on a podcast talking about
37:57
this program and all of the money that it was costing, all of the years that it's been and the zero fiber that's been put in the ground. And so when it gets that kind of attention, that kind of caught my interest. Not good attention. It became emblematic of like bureaucracy, federal bureaucracy, right? Post-agile. his perspective, he's not wrong.
38:22
but he also doesn't know all the details about what's involved in the plan. But yeah, it's been four years. It's wild. And there's not been a stitch of fiber put in through this program. And contrast that with CPF um from the ARPA Act, the American Rescue Plan Act, that was actually just passed like six months prior to IJA, because it was passed in March, right? March 21. Those networks are done and built, and they've been built.
38:52
Almost all of them are done. In Kansas, we required a 24-month build. And so those have been closed out from legislation that was passed just six months before IGET. It really comes down to how you put these programs together. And are you putting them together in a way to make it easy to work or are you putting them together because you've just loaded them up with this for this person and this for this person, you know?
39:21
That's how they grow and grow and grow and become so cumbersome that they're basically ineffective. um And that's the way Congress set it up. And so I think NTA gets a lot of blame, but Congress is one who set it up that way. We recently had Dan LeVac with Preform on. We had him back in and that was kind of his message. So he's now in government affairs. he's calling on Washington. He's in the thick of it. Yes. But his point was this going back, this is...
39:50
infrastructure bill. And that's what we need. you know, he can simplify it, you know, very well, but he's right. That's... goes back to the infrastructure and we've got to get it done one way or another. So... don't want to just come across all negative on the B plan, but I mean, there are some things obviously that have kind of drug on, but, you know, if the lawmakers haven't got it right, what can you and I do?
40:19
or what can our customers do, what can the people do to help get it right? I love it. Like, how do we be a part of the solution? Yeah. Well, I think it's still powerful when people reach out to their congressional delegation. Because ultimately this was a law passed by Congress and meant to impact them personally, know, these rural residents. so those stories matter when you call up your senator and say, well, know, Senator Moran, we...
40:47
We hear that we might be getting this technology and this is why we don't think that will work, or we actually already have access to that and we've tried it, or it's too expensive and we really think that you should care about this part of, this corner of the state and really allow this investment. em I think that that does matter. I think it's really difficult to be a lawmaker right now because the camps are so split and they're all toeing a line based on what they're being told.
41:16
Right. so, but that is the part or that is the point of a participatory democracy, you a republic, you, you, you're supposed to listen to the people you serve. we've got great lawmakers in Kansas. I'm sure you do on the Missouri side too. So I would encourage people to reach out if they feel strongly about this program and, and supporting the state and its decisions on how to spend that money. I think that does matter.
41:44
And yeah, you're right. We've been pretty negative and Ellie about it. But at the end of it all, this program will still do a tremendous amount of good. How much time do we spend knocking art off? A lot. But you know what? It still did a lot of good. It's still getting us to where we need to be. It's not perfect um and neither is bead, but I still think we have the opportunity to shape. um
42:13
how it goes, but it's only going to happen if we stand up. I know our congressional delegation in Kansas has done, has sent letters to the NTA in support of our plan. They've been amazing. So I think that all counts, you know, when these governors come out in support of what their state office has done and making these investments and, you know, hire technologies like fiber. uh I think that that matters. uh I don't, I just...
42:40
It's such a weird political environment. don't know how much it matters anymore because up is down and down is up and right is left. There's no normal anymore. The good thing is with folks like you driving the initiative and companies like yours and your leadership uh willing to invest in these communities. And it is a huge investment and it's for the people and it makes communities better. We've seen that with broadband. With or without it, with it obviously is a huge benefit to the community.
43:11
Keep fighting the good fight and thank you for all you do and what your company does. I just appreciate having you back on. Yeah, well thanks for jammering with me for a while. We went on and on, didn't we? It's time to catch up. It's been too long. Yeah, exactly. Awesome. Thank you.
43:34
I just wanted to say thanks again to Jade for joining us. It's been great to catch up with her. uh Congratulations on her new role and she's doing wonderful things there at Socket Fiber. We look forward to doing so much more with them in the future. If you're needing help with a project or looking for representation here in the Midwest, look no further than CBM. You can find us right here at cbmrep.com. Give us a like, comment, subscribe.
44:04
Let us know what you'd like to see on future episodes. We'd love to hear your comments. Thanks again for joining us on Power of the Network. And until next time, we'll see you next time.
