00:00
Hi, and welcome to Power of the Network. I'm your host, Tim Locker, Vice President of Broadband here at CBM. We got a special celebration this week. We are on episode number 50, and we're actually at our two-year anniversary. So we're celebrating two years of this podcast, and it's been a great opportunity for me.
00:19
uh It's been a great opportunity for me to learn and grow. And so we're actually going to circle back to episode one and bring back Mr. Dan Levak from PLP. So we're going to see what's changed and what's new and what direction we're going here two years later after the start of this. So join with us.
00:42
Dan, thank you so much for joining us again. uh A lot of stuff has gone by in two years. It has, and I'm excited to be here, Tim. Thank you so much. So we're celebrating this our two-year anniversary. You were the first one, first episode two years ago. And not only that, but it's also our 50th episode. Well, congratulations. You guys have been doing great. And I think I told you on the first one, this is yours.
01:10
This is where you can make your mark on this and you'll grow from it. The more you talk about it, the better you'll get. And you have. I've been listening to your podcasts. Your questions are right on. They're spot on. Your follow-ups are amazing. It looks scripted. That's how good you are. Well, I do have a script here. Well, I mean everything. Yeah. But you're knocking it out of the park. We appreciate your support and we appreciate you helping us getting it off the ground. My pleasure. for coming back.
01:38
So two years have gone by. Last time you were on, we talked a lot about the bead funding and whoa, we're so excited. All these projects are coming and where are we at now? Yeah, it's still coming. Yeah, still coming. one day. From what I'm hearing, right? Because I'm involved in a few other things too. What I'm hearing is that there's actually going to be another phase that comes out before the release. And it's kind of like, have you ever heard the term
02:08
Best and final offer. Yeah. That's next. Yeah. So now that most of the states have sent in their requests and they've re-figured it out based on tech neutrality. Yeah. There's going to be another phase that's going to say, OK, now this time I want you to be honest with me. Give me your best and final. This time for real. This time, almost this time So we've got a handful of states that have released at least names of awardees. 26. Yeah.
02:34
26 out of the 50 or no 36 out of the 56 so now but you're saying that's still gonna be another comeback around and in correct Sharpen the pencil. Yes one more time Well, I mean, you know, that's how you save money, right? He's sharpened the pencil How many times have you heard that over you? Make sure you sharpen the pencil instead of saving money. You might want to look at it. That's how you avoid spending money. So yeah, that's how it could be You know So there's been some other changes
03:04
in that. You know, the initiative has always been a fiber first initiative. ah You know, some of that's been changed to accept some different technologies. What's your take on what we're doing with that? So, let's take a step back for just a second and understand the job originally was from the IIJA. The two big words to bring out of that are infrastructure and jobs. Yeah.
03:33
So fiber is infrastructure and it creates jobs when we deploy it and when we run it. The other technologies are services that do not generate jobs. They're already there. So basically you're not going to get any more bang for the buck by turning over it to them. One more piece in this puzzle that I like to talk about, the big thing now that they talk about in Washington DC is the cost per location.
04:03
You've heard that one? The hospital location is one of the essential things that are going on. The problem I have with that thought process is it's a non-starter for me because it misses something that's extremely important and that is the journey of fiber. Understand the journey of fiber. To get to that last location, how many schools do they have to pass? How many universities do they pass? How many libraries do they pass? That gives us the ability
04:32
to have distance learning for all those people in the rural. How about how many hospitals do they pass? How many doctors' offices do they pass? So now we're talking about telehealth. But now you're going way out there, right? So the further that fiber goes out, the better off we are to pass farms and ranches and co-ops, because at that point, now you're talking about precision ag. That's all brought to you by fiber. You can't do all that stuff without fiber. You can't do it.
05:01
via Leos and you can't do it without fiber for FWA or UFWA, which is the fixed wireless assets. You can't get there without fiber. It's all essential. But let's take it a little bit further. If you bear with me just for a second. How many city halls, how many police departments, how many fire departments? Look, we can talk about this all day long and talk about manufacturing facilities, distribution centers, e-commerce, all of that stuff fed by fiber provides an opportunity
05:30
for everybody, not only in the urban areas in the inner cities, but also all the way out to the very end. And my only thought process is, if it's good enough for you, isn't it good enough for the people in the rural? So if you have access and have the ability to stream and do e-business and do all that stuff locally, why shouldn't they have that same right and that same access in the rural? Give everybody the same platform. Absolutely. Absolutely. And you you mentioned
05:59
the agriculture piece of that. You know, I'm from Iowa and that's a big part of our state commerce, obviously. And, you know, it's interesting how much has changed in that world. know, farmers are businessmen and they're very smart and they, so much has changed in terms of what they have to do to make a profit now. uh And yeah, they can't do it without good internet. uh
06:28
between the different drones and how they're applying the fertilizers and pesticides and all that so specific. uh That's a great point. And one of the comments you just made is about providing good internet. Remember, the IIJA was four years ago. Yeah, yeah. So at the time, as a member of an organization called the PCCA, the Power Communication Contractors Association, as part of the Government Affairs uh Committee, we were stressing whenever we would go visit Washington,
06:58
that we think that the speed should be 100 symmetrical, up and down. Because that really gives you the ability to toggle up or down, depending on what kind of service the end user needs. You can adjust your pricing and your speeds. We got pushback because they wanted to have room for some of the other technologies to play, so they reduced it to 120. Do you know by the time they passed that initial bill that 120 was obsolete?
07:28
It's already obsolete. Part of that bill, part of BEDE, was supposed to be that you could scale and you could adjust up and be future-proof. You can't do that with 120 speeds. And the only way that you get to that symmetrical system is to have it fed by fiber. Well, and people... It's the same thing as back to the day, you you'd feed a...
07:53
AFC cabinet with a four fiber or six fiber. Oh my gosh, you're never going to need any more than that, right? And people talk about gig service now kind of like that. Well, you don't need a gig. People don't need that. And you're right on the front end, that bar should be as far as we can see because
08:16
That's going to be way down here in no time at all the way technology goes. That's the other, the last piece of that puzzle when I talked about the journey of fiber, understanding it is what's next. Everybody's already talking about AI. How about quantum computing? How about autonomous vehicles? You can't have that. How about data centers? That's, I'm glad you brought that up because, eh there is, you know, there is some new technology in the fiber coming, you know, holocore.
08:44
core fiber and multi-core fiber and all of those things. that's going to take some time to develop, but it will do some incredible things. But the data centers, ah that's going to be an issue for everybody that's looking at this bead funding. And we're already seeing it. uh But expand on that. Why is it going to be an issue? Because... uh
09:13
Already now and we're just you know, like I said, we're just hearing some names of awardees coming out They don't have the money. They haven't ordered any product. They're not quite ready to go on the projects and most of the fiber manufacturers now are allocating all of or a very large percentage of Their fiber for data centers. Yeah, so I have a question and again, I know I'm not the interviewer
09:38
But I ask these questions that go out there because I'm concerned about it. So you just made a really good point in regards to the allocation going to the data centers. Now let's look at this from their manufacturing perspective. The whole concept between manufacturing fiber or not between, but manufacturing the fiber is that if I can run a line 24-7 at a particular clip at a particular fiber count, that's where I'm at my optimum for making money. That's where I'm going to make the most bang for the buck.
10:07
So every time I have to stop my line and then retool it for a 24 fiber, retool it again for a 48 fiber, for a 90s, et cetera, I'm not at my peak performance, my margins aren't the greatest. It's so tight. Making cables already tight. So if I'm able to do high count fiber for data centers, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, nonstop, I'm at my optimum.
10:30
Like 1728 and 3456. 6912. Just keep running that stuff all day long and that's where you're at your optimum. So as a business move, I think it makes sense. Sure. Right? So we have to figure this out in a way that is going to, to, let's, let's understand certain things though with the data centers, the requirements of so much fiber, it has to come from somewhere to go there and go somewhere from there. So at that point is where we can do a lot of distribution.
11:00
We can move things out and create bigger rings from a longer away area to create that path and that need for the additional fiber down the road. So it's kind of like I talked to some construction guys and they made some really good points in regards to bead in order to not stop the progress for anybody that's doing underground and bead, put the pipe in the ground. Get it done. Let the fiber follow. Yeah.
11:27
Put the pipe in the ground, don't stop it because you're going to get your permits, you're going to get all this stuff moving, and you can get your construction done by putting the pipe in the ground, and then when the fiber's available, then you pull the fiber. Right? So you don't stop the project and its tracks waiting for that fiber to come. Good thought. That's a good thought. Yeah, and one of the challenges too is just they can only make so much fiber so fast, let alone Boy, there's a lot of capacity for it though. There's an awful lot of capacity. Now I know...
11:56
The um word on the street now is because everybody wants a data center and I don't know if you saw the one that Facebook's going to put in. I'm sorry, it's meta. It's the size of Manhattan. I mean, it's a monster. it covers, you know, the size footprint covers 80 % of Manhattan, of the island. So it's not going there, the comparison. At what point is enough of a
12:25
of that and at what point does something have to reset? the reset comes with we're all we're humans so we're going to want to advance. If I'm not mistaken the first call that we did or the first podcast we did I made a comment about being in the industry as long as I have been. I've seen more advancement in the last six months than I did in the first 44 years of my existence in this industry. The same is true today. It's not going to stop. We're going to continue to advance because that's who we are.
12:54
That's what we do. Data centers coming forth now are going to be for AI. But here's something I got for you to think about again. If we want to be the number one country in the world that gives us AI and quantum computing and all that kind of stuff, don't we need to have the top notch investment in our infrastructure to carry that information? Absolutely. So by making this tech neutral,
13:21
We're handcuffing ourselves. It's like fighting with one arm tied behind your back. So let's take it another route though. So there are areas, you you get out in the mountains where, you know, some of that I think makes sense. construction costs of, you know, drilling through rock is ridiculous. you know, even just trying to do an aerial project in the mountains is a challenge. So there are places where it makes sense.
13:49
From that perspective, I don't think I've ever said there's not a place for FWA, UFWA, or oh LEO's. It's a great augmentation to a robust fiber uh infrastructure. There's going to be places where it makes sense. I do not disagree with that one bit, but let's keep in mind the end result was to provide a level of service for everybody that would be successful.
14:18
You know, being from Iowa, the independent telcos up there have been, I mean, they've been doing this, bringing fiber to the home for over 20 years, 20, 25 years already now. I'm a little bit jaded uh because they're just so far advanced there. Where are the biggest, what states have the biggest challenges uh in terms of- a really good question.
14:46
Yeah, so let's go with, I'm going to take you on a trip again, um which I've been known to do. um Something's happening generationally. What I mean by that is that our capabilities, let's take this all the way back to the 1930s. And I'll mention the PCCA again. The PCCA was founded and formed because of the REA, the electrification of the country. So you know all those locations that can't get fiber?
15:16
A lot of them have electricity. So we've done it before. And then we went back in the 50s and did it again with pots, plain old telephone service. We went back. There's telephones in barns. I mean, we've got telephone systems out there as far as the eye can see. Why can't we do fiber? It's a generational thing. If you look at the greatest generation, and then you've got the silent generation. Which I think I learned is not my generation. No, that's from like 1910 to 1925, right? That's the greatest generation.
15:45
And they were responsible for the baby boomers. Okay? It's their fault. Of which I am a baby boomer. So I'm the tail end of the baby boomers, but the whole thing on that concept is that each generation provided conditioning from one or two generations prior, and they had set standards and basic understanding of behavior and how we act. What they did not give...
16:14
was a list of expectations. They set the standards, but they didn't tell you how to get there. They didn't give you a roadmap and they didn't tell you what the pitfalls were. They just felt because I told you that's good enough. So if you understand the snakes and ladders of each generation, you're familiar with the old little board game that snakes and ladders. We all have ups and downs. We all have these little pitfalls that we have to navigate. The generation today,
16:43
Even though it's been done in the past, don't want to look at the example. They want their own spin. They want their own spin and they say, you know, technology says we don't have to do that. And I'll leave one last thing on the technology part of it. Fiber, and again, I'm a member of the FWA and sit on a lot of their committees. Those guys do an amazing job at public policy, getting the word out, doing white papers. They've got, Brendan O'Boyle does a really great job.
17:11
and he's the chair of the deployment specialist group. I'm a member of the technology committee as well. Those guys do an amazing job at getting the information out. The thing that I look at right now in regards to how we move forward with this is to understand again, and I'll bring it back to the IJA, the original bill that made it law for this. It's basically Infrastructure and Jobs Act. And so we have to get back to that thought process and create the jobs.
17:41
And it's not a job that you're creating for a week or for four years. It's lifelong. And to me, it's not just a job, it's a career. It's an opportunity for you to give back, if you will. So here's how I look at it today from my perspective. I think on the first podcast, I made a comment that I'm not looking for another line item on my resume, right? Because I've been around a long time. I'm kind of round and third heading for home.
18:10
I look at this as an opportunity to make this bigger than me. I look at this as an opportunity to make it bigger than PLP. However, PLP is investing heavily in the future. They do a phenomenal job and give us an opportunity. think I've heard it on the internet that PLP is the place to be. I've seen that somewhere. Yeah. So I like that concept and I thought process, but even then it's got to be bigger than PLP. It's got to be bigger than the organizations that we represent and that we advocate for. It's got to be about the industries.
18:39
that we support. It's got to be about, and by extension, the people that utilize those industries. Yeah, the people we serve. So doesn't that make every man, woman, and child the ones that we're doing this for? So if you take it from that perspective, it's not always about the easy path. Yeah. It's about the long-term commitments that we should all have.
19:03
What's different about CBM? First and foremost, it's our ESOP. Employee owners have more control and more ability to make decisions that are right for our customers and right for our company and right for our manufacturers. We've got the flexibility to put people where they need to be and use our experts wisely. If you need help with a project or need representation from an excellent sales force here in the Midwest, look no further than CBM. m
19:37
And that's kind of where I struggle or one of my concerns. know, there's already, you know, even art-off projects that are being overbuilt that we've just done 10 years ago, you know. And to me, uh it's not responsible spending to overbuild something we've already done. And so we need to make it, uh you know, we need to do it right the first time. But the driving factor of all of this is cost.
20:06
So two things on the thought process on the cost aspect. There's a difference between public and private. You're talking about public funds that everybody's taxes pay for. Yes. Right. So there is a difference. That's a good point. And also I look at the fact that with all due respect, technology will continue to change and will continue to advance. So I don't care if you think that you're going to make this future proof. You're not.
20:36
We're going to need to change something down the road a piece. But the medium, the infrastructure itself, the fiber piece of this is the one that's near perfect, is the one that will be able to handle the change. the longest lasting part. The lasting part of it because the technology generally changes on the ends, on the transmit and receive side. Yeah. Right? And maybe some things in the middle will change, but not necessarily will require an immediate replacement.
21:03
um That's like if you look at Leo's, you look at some of that stuff, their satellites have a shelf life of five to seven years. So as you look at that, that's a continuous cost of replacement over and over again. FWA is the same thing, five to seven to eight years. You're going to need replacement stuff. There's fiber that's in the ground that I worked on 35 years ago when I first started at PLP, and it's still active. So what does that tell you?
21:31
Yeah, it's there. You know, there has been changes in the fiber technology. That fiber that's been there for 35 years may not handle some of the new wavelengths and etc. But it's still working. It's still working. So before we get up, one more topic I want to, well, maybe two, but we'll see where we go. Before we get off the topic of bead, I also want to have an update or your thoughts on Baba.
22:01
And my concern a little bit is a couple of things. How are we going to really monitor that people are doing the right thing and using the right products and et cetera, and that the manufacturers, you know, they're obligated to, you know, bring the manufacturing into the states and meet the compliance, et cetera. Not everybody's done that yet. And, you know, we see some
22:27
know, BABA compliance coming soon or, you know, things like that. And I think the manufacturers are still working towards that. But my fear is that when the money finally comes, we talked about two years ago, but when it finally comes and people are ready to hit the streets, ah know, lead times extend, ah how are we going to still feed the whole projects, all the projects with
22:56
BABA-compliant stuff and just not force uh alternates to come in, to protect the people that are doing it right. Does that make any sense? I understand where you're going with this. then, of course, as always, I've got a couple of different paths that we can take on the answers to that. The first one being is that I agree with the compliance of BABA. I agree with that. And PLP, back four years ago, a little bit before that, we had an option.
23:25
When we started the conversation with the NTIA and helped them, PLP directly and through the PCCA, we wrote definitions for the NTIA in regards to the product, what they are, what they should be. And at that point they had asked us, what is PLP's capacity in order to provide your section of it? To which we provided all of the information and says, yes, we can do this. And we got that information out. So they had a warm and fuzzy in regards to, there is going to be enough manufacturing in the United States to handle this.
23:55
at this rate. So, we invested $60 million to prepare for this. It was pretty sizable investment for a company of our size. fast forward, the new administration came in and says, oh, we got to go tech neutrality. We got to be tech neutral on this. FWA and Leo's do not have to follow the compliance. Huh. Yeah. Little weird, Yeah.
24:23
That shouldn't stop us from being proper. That shouldn't stop us to try to reach all those goals. There are some inherent pitfalls that we happen to run across because of either tariffs or other things that we have to work through, right? And that's something that we have to work through. But as far as the capacities for all this to go, there was a guy that once told me that if you're not in the queue, it's on you.
24:52
Where have I heard that before? That's been out there. Yeah. And my point on that is poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part. Exactly. Yeah. So my advice to everybody that hears this, tell two friends and have them tell two friends, get in the queue. Understand now what you're going to need. You bid on it. You're going to know what you need.
25:21
I would get a place in the queue. Start thinking about it now, start planning it now, start getting your pricing availability now. Because at PLP, we're ready to produce. We're ready to hit the ground running on that. But there's always going to be somewhat of a runway that's necessary to ramp up for the scale. We learned that back during COVID. So we can achieve it, but it's going to take a little bit of time.
25:50
So the more runway you give us, the better off we're going to be for it. Because every manufacturer is better off when they're running their machines seven days a week, 24 hours a day. That's when we're at our most efficient. So when we understand what's in the queue, we can plan for it better. So it's like forecasting on steroids. It's a tough one, but it can be achieved. Now, if the NTIA releases states all at once, there could be some problems.
26:21
Do you think that'll happen or will they? I have a sneaking suspicion that that is possibly what could be a switch that goes off. And I actually heard you make the switch comment. I actually heard the Secretary of the Treasury talk about the economy saying, it's not just a switch you flick off and on. There's going to take time to grow. We need that same benefit. We need that same grace to be able to understand that it's not just a switch. No manufacturer has a switch that they flip on.
26:50
and go from zero to 60 in two seconds. We have to ramp up. And to your point earlier about the fiber, it really depends who's going to be supplying what, where, and how. And that's going to make an inherent difference as well. Are there going to be some waivers? I just hope we don't use the lead times as an excuse to not use something that's manufactured in the United States. Yeah, that's oh my fear.
27:17
While we're on the subject and you mentioned jobs, uh one question is how much of the funding, the BID funding, uh what percentage of that is going to training, learning, uh you know, the job side of that act versus actually, you know, fiber in the ground? And what are some of the state's plans with, you know, actually
27:46
bringing the jobs, training the technicians and all of those sorts of things. A lot of the state's broadband offices had uh workforce development in their plans. uh I was a member of the governor of Ohio's task force for 5G and broadband deployment workforce development. I was on their task force. As soon as the NTIA went back to the drawing board again, they disbanded that.
28:13
Well, it's not disbanded, it's basically on hiatus until they see what's going to happen. So I think most of those broadband offices had a workforce development uh programs in play. was like in Ohio, for instance, there was I think three tech colleges, Ohio State was in there, Youngstown State was in there, Toledo, University of Toledo. I think there was quite a few actually, uh Cuyahoga County, uh Tri-C.
28:41
They were involved in it. There was a lot of players involved in it. uh And I did some training uh at Youngstown State for their first fiber training program. But you've heard me talk in the past for every one fiber splicer, you need 20 construction positions. For every 20 construction positions, you need 45 positions in the manufacturing, distribution, and sales arenas. But wait, there's more. For every one of those positions, you need like 200.
29:10
people that are qualified instructors to be able to teach all of these different facets of what we do. It's a tough one because especially the greatest teachers are the guys that are doing it right now and the money they make in the field, they won't walk away from to make a quarter of that money to teach it. So there has to be some thought that goes into how would you take care of that to make sure the training goes out. I can only talk for PLP is that we provide training to our customers.
29:39
as much or as little as they want, we're going to do there. We're going to be there to do it. Now, when I started this, it was nothing for us to get a crew of people that would come in and sit in a classroom so that we could do a bunch of hands-on training with their guys. Today, they don't like to do that because they don't want to take away productivity. They don't want to stop working in the field to be trained on something. Have you heard this? Oh, I've done this so much, I can do this blindfolded. I don't need training. Those are the first guys that are going to call you saying, your closure's
30:09
are terrible. They leak. Can we train you? Well, we don't want to pull the guys out. I'll you what, I'll do it live and in person in the field with your text in a trailer. Will you? Absolutely. Changes the thought process. And you know what? They typically learn from it. And I'm not saying that these guys aren't professionals. They are. It could be new, could be different. They could be using Brand X for all these years and now they've got something a little different and they're not familiar with it.
30:39
The little training goes a long way. um I've heard you mention the PCCA numerous times. Once or twice. What are they doing for uh training to help with, you know, like the construction piece of that and all those positions? Do they have a program or something? Oh yeah, they do. The PCCA is heavily involved in education. They're heavily involved in providing the curriculum for tech schools and to get them up and running.
31:07
It's always difficult to get that ball rolling, once it's rolling, it's greatest. And the best example of it is State Tech in Missouri. They are probably the preeminent training for construction workers, both aerial, underground. Those guys are phenomenal. State Tech is a godsend to the industry Where is that at? What city? I can't remember the exact location of it, but the Selenreich group, they've helped get it off the ground. They sponsor it.
31:35
um They're an amazing company onto themselves, but the PCCA has developed curriculum to help get all these guys up off the ground for that training in the technical schools. And they've done it in like five or seven states, and not everyone's worked. Not every one of them has worked. It takes a special sauce, if you will, from that technical college, and it's a heavy investment. It's a heavy investment to get that ball rolling.
32:02
They call it a peak snowball, I think. I think it's the peak of the snowball. I've heard that term somewhere. Yeah, that's right. I've heard it too. But the PCCA has done a lot. They've done a lot for advocacy. They have a foundation, which is a part of the organization that's basically their philanthropic part, whether it's for scholarships or other. I'm actually on the board of directors for the foundation for the PCCA. So they do a lot of good stuff for not just the industry, but for the future of the industry.
32:30
and for the people that really need help to move into the industry. uh So they do a lot of good work there. So if you're a young kid looking for something to do, you're saying there's a pretty good path of going to a tech school, learning construction, communications, etc., and walking out the door to uh work for a good company like a selling record or something. It's not just work for a good company.
32:57
It's to create a career path for yourself that you can follow and end up being an owner one day. You could create your own company. You can be an entrepreneur and still start in the field. You know what I'm saying? I mean, there's so many different avenues you can go because everybody in this group looks like there's one path. There's not. It's the autobahn with off-ramps. I mean, it gives you this opportunity to make a wonderful career, make some good money.
33:24
be very advanced when it comes down to after you get out of high school, you move into this career and you start to set yourself up for the future, which is it's an amazing opportunity. The opportunities are endless and it provides you with a really good way to go. Yeah, in a great industry. Absolutely. people. That's what I've taken over the years. Just the people in this industry are top notch. In all of the industries we serve.
33:53
at PLP, I can count on one hand the number of not nice people I've met. Well, wait a minute. That's me. So four. But of those people, right? Maybe four in a 45-year career? So what does that tell you? Like you just said, everybody in this industry are very good at heart. So piece of advice for the new up-and-comers, the new salespeople especially, if someone gives you a hard time,
34:21
If someone kind of curses you out or throws you under the bus, there's a good chance that something happened to them on their way to work today. Yeah. That they're just not themselves. Because if everybody is inherently good, something might have turned the corner for them that particular day that put them in a bad way. Yeah. I ask you two things. Number one is don't take it personally. And the second thing is take a step back and give them a little grace.
34:51
Because if you do that, the chances are they're going to see it, they're going to appreciate it, and it will come back to you tenfold. That's great advice. Great advice. Thank you.
35:08
Thanks again, Dan, for joining us here. It's great to have you back in studio with us to celebrate our 50th episode and our two-year anniversary. We're going to follow up with the second half of our discussion on the next episode. If you've got a project you need help with, or if you're looking for representation from a great firm here in the Midwest, look no further than CBM. You can find us right here at cbmrep.com. Thanks again for joining us, and until next time, we'll see you next time.
